Lawrence “Larry” King a teen was shot to death for being gay. Why the hate? Part 1
I know Ellen got it right when she said the following:
"A boy has been killed and a number of lives have been ruined. And, somewhere along the line the killer, Brandon, got the message that it's so threatening, so awful, and so horrific that Larry would want to be his Valentine -- that killing Larry seemed to be the right thing to do. And when the message out there is so horrible that to be gay, you can get killed for it, we need to change the message. Larry was not a second-class citizen. I am not a second-class citizen. It's ok if you're gay."
We really do have to wonder where a teenage boy gets the message from that a person should be killed just for being gay.
Sadly one of the places a person learns such a thing is from various religions. I have seen far too many hateful comments left on blogsites, YouTube and various other websites to ignore the message of hate that is all too often being delivered by people who proclaim to belong to religions of love.
It is time people started thinking for themselves and stop hiding their bigotry or ignorance behind their so called religious dogma. If you really do believe you belong to a religion of love then your task is easy, if you really do have love in your heart then there is no way that you can continue to use your religion to persecute people - it is impossible to persecute anyone if you have love in your heart..
Religion was used to justify slavery, justify segregation, justify the oppression of women (still doing so in some religions/doctrines) and it is still being used to justify the oppression of gays, lesbians, bi-sexuals and transgender people and it is wrong.
I am actually past debating this issue, because as far as I am concerned it is insulting and dehumanising to any LGBT person to even have to have this debate. As Ellen said: "Larry
was not a second-class citizen. I am not a second-class citizen. It's ok if
you're gay."
If you proclaim that you are a Christian and you can't see that oppressing and persecuting LGBT people is wrong, then please take the time to look around on the internet as there is plenty of information around to help you read scripture in a new light when it comes to LGBT people and Christianity.
I approached this subject initially with
love. I couldn't reconcile what I had been taught in a Christian church about
Jesus/love and the persecution of LGBT people by far too many in the Christian
church and also that many others in these churches weren't speaking out against
this persecution.
What was happening to LGBT was against everything that I thought the Christian
church stood for, so I did a lot of reading of the 'clobber' scriptures and
their historical context and it was so blatantly obvious to me that these
scriptures do not relate to any gay person in a loving committed relationship.
Yes scripture states that promiscuity is a 'sin' but it is just as much a sin
if you are heterosexual or gay, there is no distinction. Being gay doesn't
automatically make a person promiscuous, that assumption is a false stereotype
that seems to once again be portrayed far too often to clobber LGBT people.
If you are not sure where to start looking for alternative information regarding Christianity and homosexuality here are some links to get you started:
NO LONGER SILENT – Clergy for Justice
Metropolitan Community Churches
The Bible and Homosexuality
Homosexuality: Not a Sin, Not a Sickness
What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality pdf
A
Letter to Louise - A Biblical Affirmation of Homosexuality
If you don't believe there is a message of hate coming from Christianity then just take a look for yourselves. It is time for people to really speak out about this issue.............
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Comments
bigotry makes no sense - especially if you proclaim that you are trying to be a good person - there's no excuse for it
Love to you Worker.
I approached this subject initially with love. I couldn't reconcile what I had been taught in a Christian church about Jesus/love and the persecution of LGBT people by far too many in the Christian church and also that many others in these churches weren't speaking out against this persecution.
What was happening to LGBT was against everything that I thought the Christian church stood for, so I did a lot of reading of the 'clobber' scriptures and their historical context and it was so blatantly obvious to me that these scriptures do not relate to any gay person in a loving committed relationship.
Yes scripture states that promiscuity is a 'sin' but it is just as much a sin if you are heterosexual or gay, there is no distinction. Being gay doesn't automatically make a person promiscuous, that assumption is a false stereotype that seems to once again be portrayed far too often to clobber LGBT people.
Oh totally Jd, I agree and yes the thought has crossed my mind. But it is almost as if it is normal in the US these days. The number of gun associated deaths in public places in the US just in the past couple of months is just totally staggering to me. But I read an article about a month or so back and it basically said that these shooting aren't on the rise - it just floored me!
The gun culture between the US and Australia is just so different. From the reading I have done the close association between the more right winged US Christians and their right to bear arms is totally baffling to me.
"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammo"
They will even quote Bible scripture to justify their right to bear arms, it is a huge deal.
Plus the mentality that a problem should be solved by using a fire arm, well obviously not something I can relate to at all. I have even read opinion pieces in US media saying that the answer is more guns in schools.
So Jd the reason I didn’t even mention the gun issue, is because for many it doesn’t seem to be an issue. I guess it is not my country so I should just stay silent on this subject. I have mentioned it once before in a post, so this time I thought I would just let it slide.
What are the roots of this? What would make people so bothered that another group of people exist?
I do not have all of the answers but I think the following points may be relevant to people who think like this.
In the case of young men when they perceive that a gay guy is making advances then they see it as a threat to their own masculinity. They have been indoctrinated to believe that being gay is bad and therefore they would not want to be perceived as being gay by association with a gay person. So to prove that they are not gay, they then strike out at the gay person to prove to others that they are not in fact gay. Of course it is quite possible in some of these cases the person who strikes out is not sure of their own sexuality and they wouldn't want another's knowing their 'deep dark' secret and strike out to hide their own 'issues'. Very much the bully mentality, hurt someone else to hide your own insecurities.
I think that any one who is confident in themselves and are comfortable with their own sexuality would not act in this manner.
What would make a collective group so bothered that gay people exist, well unfortunately incorrect interpretation of the Bible is certainly one of the reasons. As you said in another comment on my post about WBC, the likes of Pat Robertson, Dobson, Falwell and Hagee are not helping. When some one such as Hagee has a huge following declares that hurricane Katrina was caused by the presence of a gay population and people also wrongly associate that with the fall of Sodom, then people see that the USA is under threat from God for allowing such a population to exist. If the citizens of the USA allow gay rights, then the country is enabling gay people and therefore there will be collective punishment handed out to the USA by God. As much as some don't like to admit it, what WBC is saying is actually what people like Hagee are saying just packaged in a different format. It is interesting that Hagee was silent when tornadoes killed 55 people in the Bible Belt of America in early February, why did these Bible loving people die at the hand of God.
Another point. Due to some of the teaching by a fair percentage of Christianity and other religions, being gay is perceived as being a terrible sin and many seem to perceive that it is a greater sin than any other sin (not how I think at all). If people see that being gay is a choice (which it is not) and that other gay people can make their child gay (which they can't) and being gay is a terrible sin and if their child becomes gay then they will be eternally damned and go to hell, then a parent/relative/sibling who thinks this way out of protection for their loved one may try and harm some one who is gay to protect their own loved one from an eternal life in hell. Remember people will go to extraordinary lengths to protect their own.
If being gay wasn't made out to be the a monster by religion and people were comfortable with their own sexuality, then I am sure the hate crimes against gay people would certainly diminish.
There will always be hate crimes against those that are different to ourselves, but I think with a bit more education the levels can be decreased.
My wife taught in the town daycare for years. I picked her up from work enough to get to know the kids and the other teachers. Here is something that puzzled them all (Remember, this is Amherst MA, progressive liberal capital of the US):
Kids are not inherent racists. New kids of different ethnicity came in every day, and they all played together fine, except for the occasional bully who was an equal opportunity prick and picked on everyone. Racism is learned, mostly from the home.
However, there was a young boy who would have rather hung out with the girls. Not only did he hang out with the girls, he acted like a girl, and often traded clothes with the girls to dress like a girl. What did the other boys do, regardless of ethnicity? They cut him off from the group, and the little boy learned to stay close to a teacher when they played outside. The teachers and parents told the other boys again and again to include this kid and not to pick on him because he was different, all to no avail. It seems that male kids are inherently wary and defensive with boys that act like girls.
I grew up with a kid like that. He survived elementary school because his brother was a tough SOB and no one wanted to mess with him. i didn't pick on him -- i was much to busy defending myself to notice his problems. It was a small school system, and Craig was tolerated more and more as he went thru school. I got beat up more than him in high school. But he was never ever accepted by the male population of the school, despite administrators, teachers, and parents defending Craig. At best his existence was tolerated, although we did accept him as part of our class -- and his story is the story of homosexuality in America, which is destined to be tolerated but never accepted. We defended him against guys from rival towns because that was just, not because we accepted what he was. Craig died of AIDs in Denver, bout ten years after he graduated high school.
Bias against homosexuality goes far deeper than racial bias, and tolerance will have to be enforced far more actively than racial discrimination. If someone is a citizen of the US, they are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness regardless of class, race, gender, or sexual orientation -- and homosexuals will have to be protected more than the rest, because anti-homosexual bias is hardwired into the male psyche. Your story didn't surprise me at all.
Peace
Thanks for your comment and nice to hear from you. I really do wonder about the male psyche, it appears males can be excused for so much behaviour because it is hard wired in.
My story did not surprise you at all? Come on not even a hint of surprise. There is a difference between bullying and shooting a boy in the head at close range in the science class. As Jd said why did a 14 yo boy have access to a gun and then felt the need to use it? If this happened in Australia it would have made front page news as soon as it occurred, not a week or two weeks later.
However I accept what you say is a factor in the amount of gay bashings by males and it is a worldwide problem even in Australia, we just have less access to guns. I think that all young boys will have a suspicion of a boy who plays with girls, after all there is an age group for boys who don't want to catch 'girl germs'. But boys do grow out of that phase and many can be educated against discrimination of any type, not all boys are bully's. My son is nearly 15 and I know he wouldn't be that threatened by some one who was gay so as to feel the need to kill him or even bash him. However, I am having to educate him not to call certain things or actions "gay", but I have also had to educate him not to follow the crowd in other areas over the years, so I think parents have a responsibility to educate their children in these matters on an ongoing basis.
We could quite easily make the comparison with how some males treat females, there was a time that the mistreatment of women could be said to be ingrained in the male psyche, when in fact it is learnt behaviour. I think that teaching a male at a certain age not to discriminate against anyone is possible for many male teens and young men.
There was a gay teen in my daughter's year at school and he was totally out of the closet, he wore nail polish etc and hung out with the girls and that boy was generally accepted for who he was, he was never bashed or harassed to any extent by the local boys. The school I am talking about was not classed as the best school in town either at that point in time, it was unjustly considered the school where the no hoper's go, so if there was a school where that boy should have been abused it was that school. I think he would have been in more danger had he gone to the local Christian private school which had a terrible record of bullying.
There are openly gay men in the armed forces and they survive and that is a place that you would think that they may be in danger if it is so ingrained into a male's psyche. Yes even in the US armed forces, despite that silly "Don't tell rule"
I am glad that you believe in:
However I don't just blame hard wiring in the male psyche I think there is also some conditioning going on and I am very saddened to say that some religious people are at fault for either promoting the bias or not speaking our against the bias, especially in the US which is a very Christian country.
See my next comment.
Peace to you as well.
"Kill a Queer for Christ"
The thinking shown in the bumper sticker and the position of many churches and their pastors abets the crimes against gays and lesbians. Peter Gomes, Professor of Christian Morals at Harvard, says, "The combination of ignorance and prejudice under the guise of morality makes the religious community, and its abuse of scripture in this regard, itself morally culpable." (Peter J. Gomes, The Good Book, 147)
He relates this:
In preparing for her novel The Drowning of Stephen Jones, based upon the true story of a young gay man tossed from a bridge to his death by a group of young gay-bashers, author Bette Greene interviewed more than four hundred young men in jail for various forms of gay-bashing. Few of the men, she noted, showed any remorse for their crimes. Few saw anything morally wrong with their crimes, and more than a few of them told her that they were justified in their opinions and in their actions by the religious traditions from which they came. Homosexuality was wrong and against the Bible. One of those interviewed told her that the pastor of his church had said that homosexuals represented Satan and the Devil. The implication of his logic was clear: Who could possibly do wrong in destroying Satan and all of his works? The legitimization of violence against homosexuals and Jews and women and blacks, as we have seen, comes from the view that the Bible stigmatizes these people, thereby making them fair game. If the Bible expresses such a prejudice, then it certainly cannot be wrong to act on that prejudice. This is the argument every anti-Semite and racist has used with demonstrably devastating consequences, as our social history all too vividly shows.
In the summer of 1998 fundamentalist Christian organizations, fearful of the consideration by some states of recognizing same-gender marriage, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on ads in major newspapers telling the nation that gays and lesbians are "sick" and "sinful," that they can and should be "cured," and that their rights and protections should be denied. (Mel White, "A Soulforce Response" in Open Hands, Vol. 14, No. 2, Fall 1998)
A writer says, "Those of us who have published opinion pieces in favor of gay equality can testify that most of the hate mail we get cites religious justifications for the hate." (Michael Nava and Robert Dawidoff, Created Equal: Why Gay Rights Matter to, 100)
A gay and a straight man worked together and became close friends. Then the straight man became a Christian. When his friend learned about it, he was concerned and asked, "Now that you are a Christian, will you still love me?" Isn't that a tragic question? What did this man think about Christians that made him ask that?
Our churches need to change, for the churches ought to be havens for gays and lesbians from the insufferable burdens they bear constantly. But when the world believes that churches despise and condemn homosexuals, those who hate them find encouragement.
When the story of the Holocaust became more fully known, there was recognition that the sin of the Nazis was not the only sin involved--there was the silence on the part of the churches and of other nations as they learned about it during the war. When we know of the hate and the hate-crimes against lesbians and gays, we should not be silent; we have a responsibility to fight it. Our silence encourages it and makes us guilty.
Pastor Paul Duke is preaching about the sufferings of gays and lesbians:
Whose fault is this? It's the fault of us all. It's the fault of any of us who make jokes about gay people, who insult them with the use of demeaning names. It's the fault of us who are silent when others do these things or when they publish lies about what homosexuality is. And it's the fault of us who don't provide a safe place and a caring response to those of homosexual orientation. Who knows how many hundreds of thousands of lives have been lost - to violence, to suicide, to drugs, to promiscuity, to AIDS, to shattered self-esteem, to life forever outside the doors of the church - because we have participated in or by silence colluded with the demeaning and the ostracizing of homosexual people. In this respect there is blood on the hands of the church. And that's what has driven me more than anything else to talk with you as I am doing. I have had a vision of Christ at the judgment asking, "Why were you silent?" Why has the church abandoned these children of God to despair and to death? When people are lost and dying by the millions you don't pontificate about sexual morality, you reach out to them, you give them a safe place, you listen, you talk, you love with the love of Christ.( Paul Duke, "Homosexuality and the Church" in Robert M. Baird and Katherine Baird, Homosexuality: Debating the Issues, 231f)
Our churches are so terribly wrong here, just as they were in the sixties with the race issue and 150 years ago with slavery. All the wonderful things our churches are doing and the immeasurable importance they are to our society can't cover up our woeful failures in this matter.
Extracted from:
A Letter to Louise - A Biblical Affirmation of Homosexuality
'Liberal' churches (that would be me) espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of 'love'. They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, 'because they can't help it'. They are not only wrong in this thinking, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice. More accurately, they liken homosexuals as less moral than animals, because even animals know better than to degrade themselves through such unnatural and immoral conduct.
The quote in my mind is a load of rubbish (saying it mildly) one glaring inaccuracy is the fact that there IS homosexual behaviour in animals, if they can't even get that point right how can they expect any one with a brain in their head to take them seriously.
However if it was true then the same could be said about claiming that,Is that not reducing males to animals driven by instinct?
Reducing the male person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.
I find it interesting because although you don't condone such action, I am virtually 100% sure that the owner's of this website would say that if a man did act in a violent way towards some one who was gay, then they could be excused because they were acting morally. This website equates gay and lesbians with 666 and therefore akin to the devil given that 666 is the mark of the beast.
There are some sick Christians out there who need psychiatric help!
I pray none of them live in my neighbourhood.
Humans, on the other hand, can control their animal instincts to conform to mores and norms. I live in a place where there is a concentration of homosexual men -- i serve many coffee at my kiosk at the university library. My first instinct, quite honestly, especially if they are obviously effeminate, is revulsion. But i have trained myself to look past that, and have, over the years, benefited from knowing several homosexual men.
However, i also know that mankind is created in the image of God. No matter what people do to try to efface this image, they still deserve respect, and that is what i give these customers. I have several people i see socially that i accord the same curtesy. Tolerance is not acceptance, Chezz, but it is civil. These people on this website are justifying their actions because they know their judgments are unacceptable. If homosexual men are not hurting anyone, or tampering with the rights of others, then they should be free to live how they want to live.
If these website guys would argue following their baser instinct is defended in the Bible -- well, we both know that they are wrong. We are asked to do things that are sometimes opposite of instinct in the Bible, i.e., to pray for those who persecute us, to turn the other cheek, to forgive our enemies, and to put others before ourselves.
But let us not deny that people are fallen, and violence and murder lurk just under the surface of our hearts in all of us, if the circumstances were right. What happened to this kid should come as no surprise at all, i'm surprised it doesn't happen more often -- are we to wring our hands in horror at what we know is the norm, and not the exception? It should make us angry when people use violence when they encounter the unexpected or the offensive, especially if it is the tyranny of the stronger over the weaker. Stories like this strengthen my resolve to make sure that this stuff doesn't happen in my community. I preach tolerance because i practice tolerance. If i can control my reaction, so should others. I admire how you are raising your son.
The people on the website do have the right to voice their opinions -- they just should base them on other, more honest and compelling arguments, or at least a better interpretation of the NT Scripture. Just because people object to homosexuality and gender and identity politics doesn't mean they are immoral or full of hate. After reading what they posted, it would seem like they are just not that intelligent.
Peace, my friend. I hope you are feeling better!
I guess in a sense I wanted to explore your views just a bit out of curiosity. You see I have come across many Christians who have a notion that we are not animals and therefore do not have animal instincts i.e. made in God's image etc so we couldn't possibly be animals with animal instincts. I would say that the people on the website I mentioned have this view and I just wanted to make sure I knew where you stood on the whole we are animals issue.
Yes exactly right, so when people behave badly towards people who are gay or anyone for that matter, the use of the 'animal instinct' or in the case of violence against gay people the 'gay panic defense' shouldn't be an excuse. I am glad we both agree on this matter.
Do you think they know their judgements are unacceptable, or are they so brain washed that they know no better? If these people claim to be Christians and they knowingly behave like this then I am truly sickened. It seems that many of the Christians who have totally condemned gay people in the past based on what they were taught through their church and then realised that what they had been taught was wrong, were horrified at both their previous actions towards gay people and the fact that they were taught to hate gay people. These people have felt cheated by the church. I have to admit when I discovered the real reason why Sodom was destroyed was not due to homosexuality, I was furious and I still get furious whenever I see people preaching that very thing!
I don't know about Minister Leroy who runs that website, but I know that there must be 'preachers' who know better and are still preaching hatred through scripture and I don't know how they can do such a thing. The only excuse I can have for them is that they are insane. I just don't get it. These 'preachers' who preach hatred seem so sure that they are going to heaven and they firmly do believe that what they say is right because if they knowingly knew what they said was wrong and they were still 'preaching such hatred they would know they were not going to heaven and would they risk such a thing? The flip side is that if they don't believe what they are saying or know that it is wrong to be preaching such hatred, then they are true bigots who are not Christians, don't believe in heaven and are just hateful people pretending to be Christians.
I just don't know what to make of the likes of Hagee, Pat Robertson, Falwell (RIP) and all of the others like them. They are either brilliant con artists raking in loads of money and are also war warmongers or they are insane. Either way people like these people are dangerous and an embarrassment to Christianity.
How I came across that website is interesting as it is possibly an indication of the mentality of some of the people who go to Hagee's functions. The website was printed on someone's T/shirt who was at one of Hagee's big CUFI functions. The T/Shirt said a lot more than just the name of the website, but I will not repeat it.
On one hand these right wing Christians nutters say that Christianity is about love and then in the same breath condemn the likes of me for thinking that Christianity is about love. Well I know Christianity is about love, both Jesus and Paul stated it plain and clearly.
I know that you and I agree to disagree in certain areas of this issue when it comes to some scripture, but I am glad that we both agree that oppression and persecution of any one is not to be tolerated. Also thank you for being honest about your own feelings, not many people can be that honest.
I will always recoil in horror at the ill treatment of some people by others, but just like you I will also try and speak out about it when I can.
Love and peace to all.
P.S. My son is having a party today and overnight, about fifteen 15 year olds both male and female wish us luck - the battle plans have been drawn and the rules of engagement have been given - oh boy!